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February 02, 2004

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» define emerging church from e~mergent kiwi
Andrew Jones is trying to define emerging church. Here is my second attempt (I did this last year in an email to jonny baker, but deleted it (and so did jonny I imagine)): Define emerging church (theologically) - a journey... [Read More]

» define emerging church from e~mergent kiwi
Andrew Jones is trying to define emerging church. Here is my second attempt (I did this last year in an email to jonny baker, but deleted it (and so did jonny I imagine)): Define emerging church (theologically) - a journey... [Read More]

» Depends On What Your Definition of "Is" Is from knightopia.com | Journal
Andrew Jones is trying to define "The Emerging Church" for a popular UK magazine. The mere mention of this on his blog has elicited a lot of comments from people (including fellow Emergent honcho Tony Jones, no relation) offering their... [Read More]

» Depends On What Your Definition of "Is" Is from knightopia.com | Journal
UPDATE 6/25/2004: According to my Web stats (and a quick Google search), this blog post is the #1 search result for "it depends on what the definition of is is" — former president Bill Clinton's famous catchphrase. Well, Clinton's new... [Read More]

» What is the Emerging Church? from Regeneration @ FutureChurch
I use the terms "future church" and "emerging church" reasonably interchangeably on this blogsite.� But I have received some emails asking me to define "emerging church".� This is difficult to do,... [Read More]

Comments

BrotherPhil

This conversation reminds me of the U.S. Supreme definition of pornography... they couldn't define it completely, but they knew what it was when they saw it.

I think part of the problem (with the process of defining emerging church) is that it IS emerging. It is, pretty much, in its gestational stage... and the spiritual sonogram can determine that there is something in existence, that is seems to be growing into a healthy fetus, but, the "details" just aren't determinable yet. And that's not a bad thing... its just part of the process. Heck, we haven't even settled on a name yet! :)

Chad

Andrew, I feel your struggle when it comes to even attempting to "define" this emergent 'thing.' (which i say in all kindness) Sometimes it seems that we are so fearful of resembling anything 'modern' - or even our ideas of modernity - that we run away from anything concrete, like definitions. I love how you weaved in the idea of bringing the past into the future, which is such a needed reminder to many of 'us' energent folk. I would also concur your statement that people percieve this emergent idea as a ministry tool to reach young people or other generations. In my area, it is really starting to be a trend toward creating 'post-modern' services to attract particular gen's. Grace and peace, Chad

+ Alan

That's good thinking Father Andrew. It is a difficult excercise, and you have gone about saying that well, along with explaining, as best as can be done, some of the emerging "distinctives." I hated to use that word, but couldn't think of another at the moment. Pax vobiscum.

brad

just curious andrew ... and perhaps this is a silly question, and maybe you'll have planned to answer it anyway in part deux tomorreaux, but i'll raise it now anyway. so ... if there are different kinds of 'churches' that qualify as 'emergent,' what is it beyond the surface models, methods, activities, and social-cultural context that make them different from each other?

maggi

why are you trying to define this? what's the purpose of the conversation? (curiousity, not challenge)

andrew

hi maggi

a magazine is doing an series on emerging church and they want to fall back on a definition. understandable.

jen lemen

by the time andrew is done with it, the definition will be so layered (versions 1.0 to ?) that i doubt we'll feel oppressed in that special way definitions slay us.

Bill Ekhardt

I appreciate the positive affirmation in your definition of the church outside of the emerging church. Some comments I've heard surrounding the emerging church have not been so generous.

Scot McKnight

I like Andrew's sorting out of what the Emerging church is, and wonder if he needs to factor in two more elements: first, the Emerging folks are "responding" (not just "reacting", though that they are) to both the postmodern culture and the "form" of church out of which they are emerging. This means the "response" is a work in progress. Second, I wonder if anyone has taken time to compare the Emerging church with the "Body Life" church movement of Ray Stedman and the Californian evangelicals of the late 60s and early 70s, for that movement sought a new way to "do church" and in the process made a massive impact on how churches conceive of themselves today.

Andrew  Jones

good comment scot

yes on the first

as for the second, dave tomlinson's "postevangelical" has a good history of the house church movement in UK from which he emerged. And many of us in em. church are also invovled in house church movements and have come under stedmans influence.

Scot McKnight

This comment comes from a concern of mine, but I see the Emerging folk wanting to establish what I call "permeable walls" between themselves and the world and between themselves and other Christian traditions.

I've been left wandering in my thoughts in my commute of late with a challenge to reach our world and our local communities more effectively, and how the emerging church fits into that scheme for it is obviously thinking along these lines.

And my thoughts have considered at times how it was that Jesus drew so many to the kingdom. Here's my conclusion: Jesus had the ability and willingness to establish permeable walls between himself and his world.

John the Baptist, by calling people to get purified in the water of the Jordan, and Jesus, by calling people to the table as the "place of grace," were in effect saying the "Temple is not getting the job done as it ought." Too many are left out, and the priestly establishment needs to hear it.

To establish a new "place of grace," Jesus chose the table, but not just any table. He chose the regular ol' dinner table in homes in Galilee. Consider the pictures we've seen of St. Peter's and the Sistine Chapel and then think of just a regular house in Roma and its dinner table. Now you see what he was doing. Jesus democratized the "place of grace," and called people to come to him.

In so doing, he let people get as close to him as they wanted: they could walk with him daily; they could sit at the table with him daily; they could stand at the back of the room for awhile, until they chose to sit or walk; they could stand at the door and listen in on the conversation; or they could stick their heads through the window to take it all in. Or, they could even just ask others who had been there. No forcing here; just come as you are and as you wish.

This created a permeable wall between him, the kingdom, and the world. Are emerging folks doing this too? Especially with the postmodern culture?

Do churches today have permeable walls? Is it not the case that "strangers" who come to our "churches" know in fact they are strangers. Is it because, and I think it is, we have "impermeable" walls, tall walls, thick walls. Could we perhaps reconsider once again how to reach our community, and think instead of how we can create permeable walls between ourselves and our community?

I welcome your thoughts.

www.jesuscreed.com

Mr Ben Okigb

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john

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