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July 02, 2004

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» Sexy House Churches from LivingRoom >> A space for Life
Tall Skinny Kiwi has a great post - House Churches have no Sex Appeal. I particularly like some of his 'gripes' with house churches and thought I'd add a few of my own comments under each of his headings. (The... [Read More]

» Sexy House Churches from LivingRoom >> A space for Life
Tall Skinny Kiwi has a great post - House Churches have no Sex Appeal. I particularly like some of his 'gripes' with house churches and thought I'd add a few of my own comments under each of his headings. (The... [Read More]

» Sexy House Churches from LivingRoom >> A space for Life
Tall Skinny Kiwi has a great post - House Churches have no Sex Appeal. I particularly like some of his 'gripes' with house churches and thought I'd add a few of my own comments under each of his headings. (The... [Read More]

» Andrew writes "House Churches Have No Sex Appeal"... from charlie wear's notes
With the demise of HBO's series, Sex and the City, European emerging church guru, Andrew Jones writes about the shocking truth: "House Churches Have No Sex Appeal". [Read More]

» no sex appeal thoughts from the / campbell / chronicles
" I've been trying to find time to post some further thoughts sparked by your re-edited article, here they are; Firstly I found myself strangely encouraged. I think this was as a result of our current circumstances; having been stumbling along with h... [Read More]

» House Churches Have No Sex Appeal from Micah 6:8
I read an interesting article on the Tall Skinny Kiwi blog. It's about some of the issue with house churches. I'm not sure that I agree with all of it but it worth the read anyways. Christdot had a discussion... [Read More]

Comments

alexander campbell

It's very interesting to read this article again (especially in its anglicised version), about 18 months after I first read it. Having spent these past months changing nappies, losing sleep, wondering what this new thing will look like in a year, in five, are we doing it right, making all our mistakes on number one, crying with pride then with frustration... I now reread this article and it gives me hope and focus and not a little challenge.

Andrew

alexander - i was going to email you today to let you know i had posted this. you are one of the people we are watching closely.
keep going . . . .

it means a lot to me to hear your approval.

Isaac

Good thoughts, Andrew. I haven't heard Wolfgang in several years, so I would love to be able to chat with him again!

alexander campbell

yikes big brother is watching me! not sure if I'm touched or terrified. both I think. to be honest I have felt very small and very alone (tho I know that's not true) so I think I'm more touched than terrified. thanks. you havent replied to my 'crossroads' email. is that because you wont or just havent had time? maybe we need to talk coffee mug to coffee mug. BTW which web site did you post this to?

andrew jones

alexander, excuse me for not responding - i dont think i ever got that one. my hotmail account was only 2 mgs and it used to fill up a few times each week. now i am at tallskinnykiwi@gmail.com with 1000 mgs.
web site - i will let you know when they publish it or if they publish it (would'nt want to put pressure on them)

alexander campbell

Did you not get my email (sent to gmail.com) on friday (pizza epicentre wisdom)? If you didn't - do you have some sort of anti spam set up?

TulipGirl

Something not mentioned, but related to #2, is that in some cultures (for instance, ones in the Former Soviet Union or heavily Orthodox-oriented) house churches whatever-one-calls-it, that don't meet in a "church" building are immedicately discredited and labelled "cults." Fear of cults and sects has kept many away from Biblical Christianity.

alexander campbell

I've been trying to find time to post some further thoughts sparked by your re-edited article, here they are; Firstly I found myself strangely encouraged. I think this was as a result of our current circumstances; having been stumbling along with home/simple/organic church for the past year it was heart lifting to be reminded afresh that we are not on our own and are infact part of something much bigger and potentially significant. It was a relief.

Secondly here are some more detailed thoughts triggered by some of the issues you touch on;
BTW thank heavens 'house churches DONT have sex appeal' !
1. I'm going with 'Simple Church' as a name right now. I think the paradigm shift is so seismic in this emerging thing that no one name alone can even hope to convey what is going on. But I'm going with 'Simple' Church at the moment because the area that I feel God has focused me on is the potential for multiplication. This is made possible only when simplicity lies at the heart of our life, practice and structure. If it's not easily reproducible then it will not multiply.
2. Authentication is delayed. So what? Not really an issue for me.
3. Orientation is Backwards. Yes I believe this is another vital vital part of what God is currently doing. It's a very simple concept but it has massive ramifications I believe. It signifies a complete shift in thinking which strikes at the very heart of the way we have previously done church. It turns the current thinking 180 degrees around and there is an important reason for this. Instead of holding in and controlling we are giving away and releasing outwards. This confronts the issue of 'control' head on which is one of the biggest counter spirits we face in what we are doing. The outworking of this concept though has to be Spirit led and I certainly don't see this principle as written in stone.
4. Support is minimal. True but it's growing all the time. And I sure don't want to hit the conference trail again! Please no. For those in a position to potentially co-ordinate a support system I think the right approach has been taken thus far, 'Let's observe what is happening and wait for the Spirit's signal before leaping in.' Again I think there's something very simple yet very profound and far reaching in this approach. Much of what many of us have left behind was a result of man's control and self effort. At the heart of the new should be an unshakeable faith in Jesus' ability to do what He said He would do, "Build His Church." I believe that He can and He will. I totally accept that He invites us to join with Him in that work but it is frightening how quickly our faith shifts from Him to our own abilities. He knows what He's doing. Let's let Him do it.
5. Integration. I'm right with this, and have my money where my mouth is on this one. I am actively engaged in communicating and building bridges between the existing and the new. For most of us in year one it has mainly been a year of unlearning stuff. But again the focus God has given to me is towards the unchurched for whom there was no old to begin with.
In conclusion, for me much (not all) of this talk about church is not the real issue. The Father gathering as many sons and daughters as possible into His family is the issue. It just seems that around the nations God is loosening up His Body in order to accommodate this expansion. There is no one blueprint for this resulting pattern of church. The new skin is indeed 'liquid' and free to flow and adapt to the tiniest degree in order to be effective and real in each different nation, region, city, culture, generation, neighbourhood and street. This is why it is so powerful and potentially significant.

Andrew

well said!

Bill Arn

Hi Andrew,

This is quite interesting. A friend of ours had called earlier today,letting me know of some possibilities that could be emerging in the body of believers. I will look into more details as I go along, which could be very helpful.

Thank you, & God bless,
Wm. F. Arn

rob sharpe

I'm brand spankin new to the organism
of simple church.I've always been for it,
known it was the better of the good,better,
best.Best being reserved for where God
manifests.Point is -I want it but,can
someone tell me how order is maintained?
How schisms are resolved? And how stange
doctrine is kept out?.The early church had authoritative leaders, and a council.How does
the simle chuch keep the wolves out? those
rebels w/ agendas.Is there an authoritative leadership in the house2house network? how does it work?

keith

The essence of Home Church (HC) is essentially about what we believe the Church is, how it should be structured and how it should functions.
The Institutionalized Church (IC) is seen as being based upon various influences by man through history which has left a church very different to what God had planned. Whereas HC goes back to how the Church functioned in the New testament.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am still on both sides. Both are my
mistresses, and I love them equally. I also try to critique them equally.

The above is very evident throughout his article. He seems to see value of both the Institutional Church (IC) and Home Church (HC). Holding onto the past but wanting something new.
To me the difference between the IC and HC is that of mans ways as opposed to God's ways.
Our theology around ecclesia must change from not doing church man's way to being the Church God's way
It is not about where we meet but about how the church is structured and functions
One cannot be on both sides if some of the beliefs are completely opposed to each other.
One can only practice a single belief system not to be in contradiction
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Name is Misleading
HC is just a name that has been used to represent more than where we meet.
The ecclesiology between a HC and IC are major and in many cases completely apposed to each other.
The prime thing for me about HC is giving the headship of the Church back to the person to whom it belongs, JESUS and him alone and that the New testament (NT) gives us a model of how God had designed the Church to function for all ages. Only with that happening will Jesus get done what He wishes to get done on earth. The Church needs to be an instrument in His hand for His purposes.
Nothing less will suffice
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Authentication is Delayed.

Authentication is not required by man but doing God's work God's way.
So what people think is really irrelevant, it is what we believe the Church should be.
That is the purpose in and goal of HC's

3. Orientation is Backwards.
........ house church movement is still an attempt to contain and control the
meetings in their own camp. The full gains that are available will not be
realised until we can begin to let the movement flow into THEIR HOUSES.

Men who are truly submitted to the one who is the head (Jesus) should not being attempting to control.
That is typically the case IC churches
I have just experienced that at South City Church

4. Support is Minimal
House churches are the cookie dough of the new ecclesiology. They are tasty
and soft and very tempting. But they have not yet hardened into something
permanent. We might be 5 years away from seeing a complete ecosystem of
organic ministries that work together to enable a healthy, reproducing,
movement of house churches.
Here he actually states that HC has a different ecclesiology (what the Church should be)
But in IC and HC are so different and in some cases that they are totally opposed to each other.
Church life is not meant to be tasty and soft but tough and bitter (Not easy to overcome the flesh in my experience).
We are called to lay down our life for the King and His kingdom.
It will not evolve but happen when we get back to doing it God's way and getting Him back in control of His church

5. Integration is Absent.
House Church Utopia is still painted as being pure and contaminant-free. It is more of a progressive
evolution. .

Somebody, somewhere, needs to give people a little slack. Some space to be
pluralistic. Someone needs to integrate the new history with the previous
generation of churches. To stand on their shoulders rather than slap their
cheeks. . Why can't the house church leaders be players in the
wider picture of what God is doing among the old AND new wineskins?
Lets work towards House Church 1.2. Or 2.0. Or 3.5

Where fallen people exist, no matter what form of Church we will not be contaminant-free
It is our willingness to be the Church the way he planned it with Him in control
Jesus is able to shepherd His church if only man would get out he way.
God's plan for the church has been lost in history trough human influences over the ages.
He wishes to go back to His plan ( See article I sent "On the verge of the second reformation)

The use of the word evolution to describe the Church's development is appropriate as it implies how man has modified it from what God had intended. That the real problem. We have a church made by man and not to God's plan.
We don't need the latest version ( Church Version 66.5 or Church Version 2004)
What we need to get back to the original (Church Version 0.0 or Church 100 AD)
Nothing less will do or should do.
Only new wine skin can contain Jesus because then Jesus is in control. Oil and water do not mix.
Jesus wants His Church back and has been waiting for some 1700+ years

Lucy

You can't put new wine into old wineskins. As someone said, the beliefs of the new are so opposed to that of the man made IC that building bridges isnt really the issue. For me, to combine forces with the IC that is so against God, (and im not talking about individuals, im talking about the set up as a whole that has strayed from God,) would be compromising on what I know of Jesus. It's about truth. Truth is what matters.

Lucy

Linda Tirico

Having started a house church with denominational support in 1999-2000, I led groups in parks, bagel shops, my house and others-whereever the Spirit moved us. In 2001 the denomination withdrew all support for new church development (including the K.I.S.S. church) because "the numbers weren't there"...no new members, no financial gain, by the denomination. I am very interested in starting new plants with any group that is ready. I am working a secular, itinerate job so I will eventually not need denominational funds to live. Where are those who wait??

Linda Tirico

I am taking a copy of your article to our new Bishop in hopes that he will rethink embracing K.I.S.S. church as a valuable collateral mission. Thanks.

Andrew

Linda,

check out Simple Church on the DAWN website and the related links for some really helpful links.

Good luck!

Joshua Burton

Good article... I ran across this site in my desperate search to connect with others attempting a house church movement. I've been a part of a pioneering attempt in KC, USA. Talk about a painful process. Although we are more midwest, KC's spiritual atmosphere is more Bible-belt-like. It's actually easier to attempt house churches in a barren land than in one that has strong institutional churches on every corner. As a family we are constantly seeking God to continually mold us into the family and body He desires. We started much more institutional and at times we have over-reacted to our desire to not be that way and made mistakes by killing something prematurely. I see there being several years of fleshing this out still to come. It has been vulnerable and even humiliating at times, but we are all the more confident in our need of Jesus. Those tormentingly-beautiful failures continually force you to bow your knee and go, "I guess I'm not God after all. I really do need Him!" Anyway, I hope the best for you.

Eddie

Hello all...have read a number of posted comments here and want to connect to other believers who get this wine skin. I am in New Jersey and getting ready to post up our new website called New Jersey Home Church Network. There is only three of so far and praying the Lord will connect us to others of the same wineskin in the hopes of starting a church planting movement in the NJ area

Duncan Macleod

Well it's almost a year later, but I've referenced your site in a post on Matthew's Party at http://gospelnotes.blogspot.com
Postkiwi (Duncan)

andrew jones

better late than never

why havent house church people given me a hard time on this article?

Wendy

Probably because you did such a great critiquing them, Andrew!

I just wanted to point everyone looking to start or join a house/simple/organic church and wanting to connect with like-minded believers to the website www.revivalschool.com. Whether you like or agree with all the articles there, the forums are going to be a great way to join people together for that purpose.

I'd also suggest you search the directories at the House2House website Andrew linked to, and also register your own church there. If you don't see one for your area, definitely e-mail them. Sandra Hatley is very dedicated to helping everyone out.

Peace be with you all!

Ben Hunt

ditto on the "better late than never", but :-)....

I originally read your article a few years ago, Andrew. I enjoyed it and passed it on to a number of my friends. It was nice to come across it again, and to see the response you're getting to it.

Thanks for the insights, Andrew.

Blessings......

Jack Cunningham

I thoroughly enjoy your article, as you expressed many of my own sentiments.

evelien

Hello,

We have been in changing groups of believers for 14 years now.[ I dont want to call them HC although it happenend in a house mostly].Mostly in the Netherlands.
Of course it's interesting to talk about forms and structures, buts lets talk about Jesus more.
What I'm saying is : first ask Jesus "what' and 'why', and then the 'how' will follow.Not our worry.

Evelien

George Hach

Free online training and support for House Churches at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HomeChurchTraining

tim

DVD two years in the works just what is a biblical church? A resourse for the body to come to "see" and understand the nuts and bolts of being the church, not going to church.

Arise, return, repair and rebuild the church to what is was in the beginning.

Tj

tim

The web site for the DVD is http://www.churchinthehouse.org

Andrew Zoppelt

The problem with all our movements in the u.s.a. is that we build using the same material. We have gone from denominations to networks... as though they were different. We have gone from large programs and structures to small ones.
Let's dare and stop and consider what Jesus is doing and not just try to pop a few NT scriptures and manufacture something w/o power.
First, the early church was one.
Second, the early church was not a house church movement... it was an extension of Jesus' life in others.
Third, the body of Christ (let's stop using the word church, that's mans call)had power.
Fourth, They had a real understanding of repentance and the cross. They demonstrated a holiness and love beyond anything we can manufacture.
Fifth... they weren't stingy
Sixth, they didn't have a need for convention... lifting up methods and men.
Whenever we can do it without the Lord: raise up leaders, create cookie pattern meeting, methods of evangelism... we are only a sniff away from institutionalism rooted in man's ideas, agendas and methods.
I guess I should have a seventh... that will come when we realize when we are in need to repent and come together and pray, cry out to God for the building of His body.
Andy Zoppelt www.theRealChurch.com

lucia

Great investment opportunity in Costa Rica, beach condominiums, beach condos. Jaco apartment.
Visit us for more information at www.jaco-bay.com

Daniel

Is there a House Church Group in Birmingham in West Midlands in the United Kingdom?

Daniel

A home group to meet, worship, fellowship and pray not to live together.

andrew

not sure, Daniel. i will let you know if i come across something.

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