The Blog Post of Brian McLaren

Here is Brian, author of The Last Word and The Word After That:A Tale of Faith. Doubt and a New Kind of Christianity, a book that has caused a lot of discussion on the way we think about hell.

[Brian] Andrew, I'm interested in asking your readers these 2 questions:   
“For you personally, is the gospel primarily information on how to avoid hell, largely but not exclusively for hell avoidance, partially but not mostly for it, peripherally for it, or not at all for it?”
(Not sure if you could make this a poll?)   
“And if the primary purpose for the good news of Jesus is not to get individual souls out of hell after this life, what is its primary purpose?”
Those, I think, are two of the more important questions the book tries to raise - and I'd love to hear what your friends in the blogosphere are thinking about them.

[Andrew] Brian, thanks for coming. Here's your poll.[poll removed - results posted a week later]

Comments

[Joe]

I don't see the point of hell. An everlasting punishment is a pointless punishment as you never get a chance to apply the lessons you've learned. No remission, no chance of parole. Also, how does that fit with a God of love?

To start the ball rolling on the questions:

#1 - No. My child of four understands the power of threat (better not do that because Daddy will shout at me). I know of no adult who has been scared into the kingdom.

#2 - I think the primary purpose of the message of Christ is that although we might feel bad, we might look bad, we might do bad things, we might wander around the whole time messing up things, God still loves us. And that we cannot experience that love without it changing us, our priorities and our lives.

J

[Duncan Macleod]

#1 No. Jesus continually talked about the kingdom of God. About it being near. About it being costly. About it being difficult, but possible with God. Entering the kingdom of God was the agenda. And I don't think Jesus was talking about a future kingdom in another dimension as much as living, loving as God dreams we can. I've seen teenagers and adults scared into making decisions. That fear loses it's impact unless they're in a chronically fearful environment.

#2 I like the phrase, "It's not pie in the sky when you die, it's steak on the plate while you wait". I know that's been used to support a materialistic prosperity approach to good news. But the steak on the plate for me is quality of relationship, meaning and purpose, that comes from realigning my life with the life of Jesus so that I'm in tune with the creator.

[Tim]

I'm currently writing an essay for theological college on two views of hell - eternal punishment or annihilation. So all this discussion is quite relevant to me at the moment.

One of the most critical factors for me is taking what the bible says about the issue of hell seriously. It seems that much of the discussion (I'm not in any way pointing to Brian or the book here) surrounding this issue is dominated by what people would like the truth to be, rather than what the word of God tells us it is (although I'm not trying to prejudge what it says). I'm interested to know what others think about this?

#1. Partially, but not mostly for it. While Jesus wasn't obsessed with hell he spoke about it often and certainly saw responding to the gospel appropriately as the path to avoiding it.

#2. The gospel is the good news that God has for humanity. Jesus came and declared the truth about God, the reality of the fallness of the world and the path to restored relationship with God. As he covered these topics hell appropriately came up and the key to avoiding it was an appropriate response to the gospel.

[geo]

What if...........
Jesus took Jew (believer) and Gentile (unbeliever) into His body on the Cross as Paul says thus making the two one new man. What if Jesus destroyed hell on the Cross? What if The Book of Revelation is what took place in the body of Christ on the Cross? After all it says it was the Revelation of Christ not of John. What if the Kingdom came withou observance and is now within?
What! Wait what is that I hear? Oh it was an alarm clock, I guess I was dreaming.

Peace
Geo

[geo]

or was I?

Peace
Geo

[Jonathan Hallewell]

I am tempted to say option 3 (partially) because I believe that there is truth in Hell (quite what truth is open to discussion) BUT actually vote No because - I accept what NT Wright has to say about the gospel - being the announcement of the Lordship of Jesus - for me the gospel therefore IS the Kingdom of God (Lordship) and our seeking / participation in it. Jesus is King - Ceasar isn't - how do we express, live and communicate that today.

[Andrew Jones]

thanks tim

i agree that we have to start with the Word of God and go from there.
Hope you can leave a link, one day, to your essay.

[brian McLaren]

Thanks, Andrew, for getting the ball rolling on some important dialogue.

I love Andrew's post on "does the church believe in heaven." I just finished a paraphrase of the Gospel of Luke, and being immersed in Luke's gospel for several months ... it was very clear that Jesus wanted his followers to be willing to risk all for him and his gospel. Confidence in heaven made them willing to risk.

Some of you may know that I'm very involved in trying to get action and protection for the people of Darfur, Sudan. To me, the test of my faith in Christ, the gospel, and heaven is whether I'm willing to risk my life for people who suffer ...

Meanwhile, I recently read that among the most committed Christians, "tithing" averages under 3%.

The language of heaven and hell is intended, I believe, to push us to see that ultimate things are at stake ... that we need to "wake from our slumber."

[andrew jones]

ohhh . . that came in a bit late, didn't it?

a word about the poll. i missed one of Brian's suggested answers (peripheral) and discovered it too late, after the votes were coming in. i decided not to include it since it would affect the outcome. sorry about that!

And if anyone wants to leave hypertexted links to key articles or posts, then just write them in and i can convert them for you in here.

[brian McLaren]

Re: Joe's comment above - that no adult has been scared into the kingdom ...

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I find that a scare tactic turns more adults away from God and the church than attracts them.

I wonder if this might help explain that commonly quoted statistic that hardly anyone in most churches became a Christian after the age of 14? Maybe our "scare tactics" are designed to appeal to children and not adults?

When I read Jesus in the gospels, I see him using very strong language ... there's no language stronger than hell language ... but not as a scare tactic. Rather, he's trying to wake sleeping people to the realities of choice they face at this moment.

[Steve Lewis]

The existence or non-existence of hell isn't really the point of the gospel. Sadly, it's been an all too common manipulative evangelism strategy. The other dominant strategy is to say, "Accept Jesus so that you can go to heaven when you die." Well, that's not the point either. I'm also in the NT Wright camp - the gospel of the Kingdom is that heaven is a here and now thing.

I'd rather be motivated by the Kingdom already come than the eternal hand slap for getting it wrong.

[andrew jones]

brian

nice to have you here.

the discussion of hell triggers talk of unbelievers getting punished, but dont you talk in your book about the more common usage in the gospels, of hell in relation to the religious leaders?

also - we will have suddenly seminary tonight at 9pm and not 7pm as originally stated, so that you can finish your meeting in good time and join us online for a live chat.

[Mike B.]

In my perspective, Jesus didn't use "hell" to persuade people to enter the kingdom of god, but to show "believers" the urgency of consequences that our life has for eternity and our discpleship (see for example Mat 18:8-9). But "hell" should not dominate our evangelism. For myself, I observe that I am rather in danger to concentrate too much on this world than on focusing toot strong on eternity. So I think, we need both, a balance between a clear view of eternal life and also a holistic, not only invidual understanding of salvation, starting in this world.
Excuse my bad english, I'm german-speaking, but I hope you get my intention.

By the way. My voting was: partialy, but not mostly

[ross]

Hi Brian, great to be able to talk to you.

As I read it, the gospel is all to do with the Kingdom (and thus Jesus' kingship). Most of the images of being kicked out / left out etc seem to be Jesus talking about those who have been entrusted with something (talents, the vineyard) but have proven unfaithful having that with which they were entrusted taken away from them, and given to someone else who will be faithful with it. So it seems much more oriented towards the mantle of being 'the people of God' being redefined no longer as just the nation Israel (just as the Holy Land was being redefined, not just as the strip in the middle east, but as the whole world).

I honestly struggle to understand where hell fits in when election (of Israel, of the church) has always been for the purpose of God's mission, so the 'elect' are always trying to be salt and light as it were. Seems to me that the whole purpose of election is not to define, but rather to expand, God's Kingdom.

Thanks for your books - they really do help express the muddle in my head!

[Mark Cross]

The answer to question #1 for me is, "No, not at all for it."

Hell may or may not be an issue but it surely is not the message of the gospel, not to me it's not. The gospel is GOOD news! "HEY! You're going to HELL!" is not GOOD news to me. Then again, "HEY! Heaven has come to you!" is.

The answer to question #2 for me is, "to get heaven into individual souls during this life."

The Bible says of Jesus, I have come that you might have life and that more abundant." I believe that.

Like my Grandma used to say, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." It comes down to your perspective of God. Is He a God of judgement or a God of love? My Bible says God himself IS love. So love is the message of the gospels, to me.

Thanks for writing your book Brian. And thank you Andrew for hosting this discussion this morning.

[Joe]

Tim - I agree that we must allow the bible to speak for itself, but I confess my sunday school knowledge often gets in the way of my reading. I find myself reading what I think it says or what I think it out to say rather than what it does say.

Jesus did use very picturesque language for hell, I'm not denying that for a second. On the whole he seemed to be suggesting that rather than being everso holy, the 'religious' of the time were actually headed for the municipal waste tip. Mostly he appears to be bringing the strong, the holy, the spiritual and the self satisfied down a few pegs.

Brian - I think there are few people who converted over the age of 14 (actually I'm not totally convinced this is true) because the solutions we offer are too often cut and dried and ok if you are normal. To most broken people, good news does not involve telling them how to avoid hell. It involves loving them, building them up, caring for them. And in our instant 24/7 electronic society, the neat 'sign here to avoid hell' package might suit a pomo church, but it goes no distance to dealing with people's hurts.

We need church that behaves as if people actually matter more than counting conversions. And if we buy into that, we have to leave behind our simplistic language and get down into the dirt where people are.

J

[DoSi]

I totally agree with Joe (Start with the Scripture). This leads me to Hebrews 11: Living the kingdom life in the here and now as a pilgrim with an eternal perspective. And IF we believe in heaven (+ hell), our daily life HAS to be affected, as Andrew posts. And so I appreciate Mike's claim for a holistic view of salvation. When it comes to evangelism, I long to invite people to the abundant life God offers. Still we need to be honest and speak about the eternal consequences. Jesus did this when he tried to wake a sleeping church (not only in the Gosples, but as well in Revelation 2-3). And it's the good tradition of Wesley, Finney and so on...

[gary]

I'd have to say that the gospel as I read it seems to be about anything BUT how to avoid hell. If Jesus admonition "those who seek to save their life will lose it" is to be taken seriously, then the notion of coming to Christ for the sole sake of avoiding hell is antithetical to the gospel call.

I'd prefer to see the gospel call as embodied in - amongst other things - the Lord's prayer, where the priorities seem to be much more focussed towards the kingdom of God coming in the here and now. And the eternal might well be a by-product of that, rather than the primary focus.

[DoSi]

I totally agree with Joe (Start with the Scripture). This leads me to Hebrews 11: Living the kingdom life in the here and now as a pilgrim with an eternal perspective. Because IF we believe in heaven, our daily life HAS to be affected, as Andrew posts. And so I appreciate Mike's claim for a holistic view of salvation. When it comes to evangelism, I long to invite people to the abundant life God offers. Still we need to be honest and speak about the eternal consequences. Jesus did this when he tried to wake a sleeping church (not only in the Gosples, but as well in Revelation 2-3). And it's the good tradition of Wesley, Finney and so on...

[lisa c]

all,

as someone who "converted" after the age of 14 I would say scare tactics or fear does not stop someone coming to know God. but it can certainly keep us from coming to church. why is the church striving to offer solutions when maybe people just need a bit of space to explore and ask questions. as a friend once told me, church is where I am made to feel guilty.

lisa
btn, uk

[DoSi]

oops, how did that come a 2nd time - Sorry!

[David]

brian,
you make so many great critiques of the church (particularly modern american church). i often find myself in 100% agreement. however, i wonder if it is possible to address some of the issues without changing one's view of hell (and other things). does the fruit or bad fruit of the "doctrine" necessarily condemn the "doctrine"? hasn't the name of Christ been horribly misrepresented and abused throughout history? we don't throw out Christ, rather we identify the sinfulness of those carrying out the abuses. i know that your belief system is not simple pragmatism, but how do you respond to the accusation that your "new" ideas are only responses to cultural shifts and the incompatibility of traditional christianity with postmodern sensibilities?

[ryan]

I just finished reading "the last word and the word after that" and I am fearful of being branded here as "someone who just doesent get it." While I agree with much of what Brian wrote about the Gospel being much more comprehensive than just filling the pews in Heaven and that the Kingdom of God is here; I am still left with the big "E" on the eyechart wondering well what do you believe happens when we die? I mean I know we can go round and round talking about how this is not the question to ask, but people do and they are concerned about it, so just wondering what you do think about this Brian.
thanks,
ryan

[Brian Orme]

Brian
One thing I am sorting through is the actual message of the "Gospel"--Paul seems to point to the good news as the death and resurrection of Christ(Cor.) and Jesus calls people to repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. How do we reconcile these--is the Gospel really a remix of both message? The pure gospel? that Jesus allows us to enter into the kingdom because of his death and resurreciton. What do you think?

[Matt]

My 2 cents...

I don't see the good news of Jesus Christ primarily as "hell avoidance." I do see the good news as the opportunity to join Jesus in the life of the New Heavens and the New Earth (i.e., the eternal kind of life, to paraphrase D. Willard). In doing so we join in God's process of re-creation of the world, becoming a part of that which will remain even when the rest has passed away. The "good news" is the good news of the victory of Jesus Christ over sin, evil and death that brings about new life to all creation.

From that perspective, the purpose of proclaiming and receiving the good news is not the avoidance of Hell but the empowerment and ability to live out a fully eternal kind of life - starting now, continuing on beyond the end of time.