The fat lazy blog-post that has let itself go.

UPDATE: Check out Mark's latest blog-post where he has time to spell out some advice on how churches can respond with this kind of scandal. Hear the guy out. Lets not take one or two words from Mark's previous post and run a cross country marathon with them. Huh???
And when you are done, jump in below and read the original post.

ORIGINAL: Mark Driscoll has a fair bit of press right now with his controversial post about women and wives. He has got himself mentioned on Andrew Sullivan - one of the biggest bloggers in the world. Andrew Sullivan probably doesn't know that I exist, even though I am only 4 notches down from him in the Google world of aggregated "Andrew" rankings. But he knows about Mark Driscoll. This is the quote he picks:

"Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either." [Read the original here on Mark's blog]

Heres a flashback from me:
"And i would expect a few of those dangerous moments on his blog as well. Hopefully it will be driving adventure without the wreckage. . . . His blog is called Resurgence"
TSK, Is the Blogosphere ready for Mark Driscoll (Jan 28, 2006)

I bring up Mark's comment, not because i have time for controversy, but because;
1. Mark is a good friend and I love and respect the guy. I am willing to take one for him if i need to.
2. Until now, I have been the Christian blogger with the most insensitive blog comment about women. And I am more than happy to officially hand over my mantle to Mark .
3. There is a fair bit of conversation about Mark's comment on my other blog posts and i would rather shift it here to a dedicated post.
4. Its going way too far. People are accusing Mark Driscoll for saying things that i know he would not say.

Example here where Mark goes beyond the fat lazy comment to say that God hates us and the non-Christian world are all cannibals. COME ON! This is crazy. Mark is one of us. Don't believe everything you read!

Technorati Tags: haggard, mark driscoll, ted haggard

In Marks favor,
- realize that Mark is talking in generalities, not specifically about Gayle Haggard - who we all agree is a fine looking woman and has not let herself go in the least.
- also realize that Mark gives quite a number of thoughts on the Ted Haggard scandal and the concern for wives letting themselves go is just one of them
- realize that if Mark is able to add to that comment, he will probably agree with a lot of the criticism -
YES - men let themselves go also and
YES - that is no excuse for grazing in other pastures and
YES - its Ted's fault and
YES - its more than than looks that count . . . . etc

and the whole argument doesn't have to be gender specific. In fact, I know one or two male pastors who have let themselves go . . . one or two. . .

Having said that, there is no argument that his comment has opened up a can of squirm. The ladies are seething and the men are not always seeing where Mark went wrong. It is here that I should open up the wound of my own insensitivites . .. before one of you beats me to it. The notorious post of mine, Urban Poor and Girls, commonly known as "the GIRLS Post', was a case study in sloppy blogging and gender stupidity. It is the only post I have ever made that has its own anniversary, with people emailing me to remind me each year of its reunion. Students of the blogosphere were taking notes on the rate of comments and the spiraling anger. I had over 50 comments before i looked at it again and those where the days (almost 3 years ago) when nobody in my world ever got more than 50 comments on anything.
You can read the Definitive History of the Girls Post if you are interested in such things.

But 50 comments on my blog is not the same as 50 blogs commenting on Mark Driscoll.

Now that i have fessed up, what say you [ladies], if anything, about the comment of Mark Driscoll? And [men] was I unfair to Mark to call his comment "untimely" in my post Haggard and the Hazzard of Hotels?

Related:
Mark Driscoll: The Skinny
Mark Driscoll Responds
The fat lazy blog-post that has let itself go.
Is the Blogosphere Ready for Mark Driscoll?

Comments

[bob]

Not unfair at all... very, very poorp timing. I think the big thing is that without mirror image cautions to men, the cautions to women come off as... no are, really sexist and demeaning.

And for the record- thos quote you linked to are really, really out of context- but true. I've heard those sermons. The one about God hating us was the Driscoll sermon that Made Bob Most Angry. )I'm looking for teh lonk...)

[knsheppard]

TSK, I'm gonna take up your challenge a bit here. I want to think about how to interact with Driscoll in light of your attempt to contextualize his statements as you do here:

- realize that Mark is talking in generalities, not specifically about Gayle Haggard - who we all agree is a fine looking woman and has not let herself go in the least.
- also realize that Mark gives quite a number of thoughts on the Ted Haggard scandal and the concern for wives letting themselves go is just one of them
- realize that if Mark is able to add to that comment, he will probably agree with a lot of the criticism -
YES - men let themselves go also and
YES - that is no excuse for grazing in other pastures and
YES - its Ted's fault and
YES - its more than than looks that count . . . . etc

1. If that's what Mark intended, then in an area where Christians are widely perceived to be either open or closet mysoginists, would not wisdom court more caution and more nuance?
2. Even if Mark is speaking in generalities, think of the kind of claims he is making! They are sweeping in scope, and likely to be completely ignored by anyone with a hankering for information based on, oh I don't know, say, social science, rather than the rantings of a pastor sharing his highly subjectivized views. To me his comments are a classic case of 'annecdotal evidence' gone overboard.
3. His analogy to 'taking one for the team' - also in poor taste considering the nature of the Haggard case, likely to further alienate those who will disagree with him - implies an 'oh, I'm just speaking the truth here, and now I'm going to get slammed again, but at least I'm "manly" enough to say what others won't' attitude. In light of his other comments on the alleged feminization of evangelicals - basically asserting their spinelessness, in a CT article as I recall - it certainly seems a plausible assertion that Driscoll is in a very public way making a series of blinkered statement on women.

All this leads me to seriously question Driscolls tactics, to the point where I've stopped paying attention at all to his statements directly. I have a hard time beleiving his remarks were made in anything other than poor taste, and will be taken as such by many, many women.

[andrew (tall skinny kiwi)]

yeah . . . uh huh . . .

[Charity Grace]

As a woman and a pastor's wife I wasn't offended by Mark Driscoll's post in the least. I realize he was talking in generalitites and I agree with him.

[Ross Royden]

OK, Andrew, you are inviting us to be honest. Well, in which case, I found Mark's comments, not only deeply offensive, unreal, and totally out of touch, but smug, self-satisfied and provocative.

First, what sort of sad person would even relate a tale of a woman paying him for sex duriong communion. Secondly, this guy, that is, Ted Haggard, whatever we may have thought of him in the past is going through a personal hell and the best repsonse as his brothers - as his brothers - is to support him. Thirdly, what sort of priest, pastor, or whatever ISOLATES himself from his congregation. For goodness sake we can't even comment on his blog!!!!

And while I am at it, the Song of Songs, whatever else it is, is not sex counselling for 21st century couples. And what Mark gets out of it (oral sex etc) is put there by him.

And I think we ought to be as bold as him in naming it.

I don't have women in my congregation paying me to have sex when I administer communion. I doubt that Mark has. If he does, he should keep quiet about it!

We are all sinners and saints, sometimes more sinners, sometimes more saints. I really don't find this sort of condescension helpful.

[Melody]

Andrew, let's be honest. If you want people to come to your blog site, you need to say something controversial and sensational. How are you and Mark any different than Lighthouse in that regard? There are a lot of people out there posting about Ted Haggard but most have at least some element of grace attached. Obviously, many in the emerging movement have learned that sex sells. How much more 'seeker sensitive' can you get?

[andrew (tall skinny kiwi)]

Melody, you may not have noticed but they are already saying it on other posts of mine that are not directed related.

some bloggers dont allow sidetrackers and delete their comments. I, on the other hand, create a space for them to have their say.

this is that space.

if you want to complain about my lack of grace, i can start a blog post for that also and you can be first to leave your comment.

[Corrie]

The thing about his comment concerning fat, lazy pastor's wives that is interesting to me is that it really doesn't fit at all with the other points. The other points are written directly to men in the ministry and things they can do to protect themselves. After all, that is the whole point of his blog post.

Mark Driscoll has just signed his name on a cheating husband's permission slip. He has given them an "out". A person who is in this sort of sin always looks for an out no matter how desperate it appears. Mark just shored up the majority of the cheaters' excuses. "Honey, I am sorry. I take full responsibility. But, if you would have just lost those extra 20 pounds and swung from the chandelier when we had sex, I wouldn't have had to go elsewhere."

That one lone comment sitting at the top of his list is written towards women and a pastor has no control over it (if it was true). People are saying that this list was directed at men but that comment certainly wasn't. What is a pastor to do who has a fat, lazy slob of a wife at home who refuses to give him oral sex in the tradition of Song of Songs? What control has he over that situation and how is saying what he did going to help men protect themselves?

I am sorry but he may take one for the team but he doesn't get a walk from me. But, then again, I am not on "the team", I guess?

It wasn't edifying, timely or helpful. And he should have apologized for it instead of justifying it. If he would have told pastors to take care of themselves and to treat their wives lovingly so their sexual relationship doesn't suffer, then it would have been a good bit of advice. After all, he was speaking TO pastors about protecting themselves from this sort of sin.

I think that there is a time and place for that sort of advice and if he cares so much about reaching people for the Lord he would do well to approach such subjects with less disgusting and offensive tactics. Does he realy care about people and helping them? Does he care about women? And we wonder why eating disorders are rampant among middle age women?

"Pass me the botox and a breast lift, my husband might leave me for an 18 year old."

I am all for fitness and beauty. But, we should not be defining beauty in the way the world does.

Kind of like his recent post: "Porn Again Christian" about a female porn star. Is THIS the kind of beauty he is referring to? What exactly is "beautiful" according to him? What happens when many women fall far short of this "beauty" that has protected him and his male assistant?

And, Charity, I am glad you are not offended personally by that post. I am sure you don't have a weight problem. I am not going to brag about my looks but after 10 children people are amazed that I look so young and I look so "good". But, that doesn't mean I don't feel empathy for the poor fat, manipulative slob of a pastor's wife that Mark was referring to.

You really can't be defending his statement and the way he said it and the context he spoke it in, can you? If you are, why? How does his comment fit with advice TO pastors? And why isn't this bit of advice TO pastors, telling them to be the best they can be so their wife WANTS to have sex with them?

[Makeesha Fisher]

Andrew, I appreciate your loyalty to your friend, but what he needs more than this right now is for his friends to confront him on this stuff.

You are a man, I understand why you don't "get it". Thank God my husband and other men actually DO get it.

It's not just this post, it's this post in light of so many of his other articles and comments that are characteristic of the misogynistic attitudes in his and churches like his.

You might have thought emerging grace's post was overboard but in my opinion, she spells it out quite accurately.

Again, I don't fault you for not getting it. But I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed that you don't at least give some weight to what us women see wrong with Driscoll.

I have no doubt that were I to meet him, that we could get along and I might even grow to appreciate certain things about him...but he needs a wake up call regarding his writing lately, and if you're his friend, you'll call him on it

[Makeesha Fisher]

by the way, emerginggrace.blogspot.com

[andrew (tall skinny kiwi)]

Defending his statement? i was the one who said it was untimely.

but surely there is a better way through this all than just spitting out venom towards Mark. And maybe this space might help towards greater understanding on our part and greater humility on mark's. lets see.

and btw - my wife has had 5 kids. you had 10? dang!

[andrew (tall skinny kiwi)]

makeesha - where did you come from? the last comment was for Corrie.

but while you are here - A number of Mark's friends in Young Leaders (including myself) pointed out to him some instances in the 90's where he spoke inappropriately concerning women. This would not be news for him today.

but that was a long time ago. its possible that Mark has a new set of colleagues now with a theology closer to his heart. Lets see what the Reformed folk say about it.

and in case you were wondering, i emailed mark half an hour ago to tell him about these posts.

[Corrie]

Hi Andrew,

I am sorry for that mix-up! I know you aren't defending that statement. I meant that comment for Charity the pastor's wife.

I should have been more clear. Sorry about that. In fact, I was just going to write in regards to Makeesha's point about you "not getting it" and say that I think you DO get it and I appreciate you even opening this up for discussion. Just the fact that you did bring this up shows me that you DO get it.

I am enjoying your blog. Thanks!

BTW, read your post about girls in China. Just to let you know, even though I haven't read through all of the comments, I don't understand the controversy. I wouldn't have blinked an eye at what you said. :-)

I am curious to see what the Reformed folk say about his comment, too.

Congrats on your 5! You are half way there! LOL

[Laura]

There is nothing new under the sun. I can't help thinking that surely at least one version of everything that could have been said has been by now... anything more will simply hurt the Haggards more, give Mark more publicity for his views, etc etc. Plus ca change...

[Julie Clawson]

It seems that Mark is mostly using the publicity of the moment to spread his message of why women are to be under men in all ways. We cant serve God in any way in the church and he want's to let the world know...

His words to women here were very very offensive, but its Driscoll what else is new. Men seem to be confused as to why women find his words offensive, and I find that be be seriously depressing and a sad indication of how little women are valued in the church. But I also had serious issues with Mark's assumptions about pastors. To cut oneself off from the congregation (no calls, no email, don't get familiar...) is to place oneself above the congragation which many are saying is part of the basic issue with this whole thing in the first place. To ask an attractive/flirty woman to never return to your group is utterly unchristian. Imagine the stories that would be missing from our bible if Jesus had done that!

As for now blocking women now from even secretarial positions in the church... why stop there? Isn't the issue that women are attractive and can cause men to stumble? Why let us work at all and cause any christian man in our presense to stumble? Shouldn't we just stay in our homes and only be allowed out under the watchful eye of a husband? And even then should we not cover ourselves completely so that no man can see our attractive features?

[Charity Grace]

Corrie, I'm not sure what my weight would have to do with it. In truth, I've had good times and bad times in that area. :) Still not offended.

I don't see MD as giving men an out at all. Keeping a marriage healthy is a mutual endeavor. I think he's just pointing that out. I Corinthians 7:1-5 says basically the same thing.

*shrug* I think we girls just need to stop being so sensitive.

[The Hungarian Luddite]

Andrew,

Just a general thought......

Where do we as Christians get our view of sexuality in general? Where does this "hot sex" thinking come from? Where does the "variety" thinking come from?

Song of Solomon is tossed around quite a bit but it is no way answers the questions above.

We live in a sexually charged society. Many of us at one time to another have viewed porn. Hot sex is the norm in most TV shows and Movies.

Could it be that our previous exposure to porn and our ongoing exposure to what Hollywood considers good or hot sex has influenced us to such a degree that we have brought things and attitudes into our married sexual relationship that is actually foreign to a Christian view of sexuality? Perhaps we need to challenge the very validity of the porn star sex life (monogamous) that is promoted by so many Christian speakers and writers.

When a person asks their marital partner if they would like to do_____________ perhaps we should at least pause and ask ourselves where did the "thought" to do such an act come from.

[Larry]

I think Mark, as he does too often, speaks "over the top," hitting a legitimate nail with a 20 pound sledge. His point is dead on, that spouses have to take responsibility for the sexual satisfaction of their spouse.

I appreciate that Mark is big on men. I don't think he gave men an "out" at all. I think he nailed us right between the eyes.

I share the concerns of many that Mark is far too flippant and crass in the pulpit. But I don't think this was one of those times.

[robbymac]

I was surprised and disasppointed to see Mark's original post, as was my beautiful wife Wendy (and we'll be the first to ruefully admit that neither of us is the same weight we were when we married 21 years ago).

I thought Emerging Grace did a fine job of responding, and that's why I linked to both your Haggard/Hazzard post and also Grace's Fat Lazy Pastors' Wives.

What I found disappointing is how vicious people have gotten in the comments. I don't want to put words in Emerging Grace's mouth, but I don't think that was the effect she was hoping for. Grace has always impressed me as a voice of graciousness and respect.

[robbymac]

Oh, and Andrew, the pictures you chose are absolutely hilarious. Once again, you raise the tongue-in-cheek bar for bloggers!

[andrew]

Hi, just watched a movie with my kids. back for a minute then off to bed.

glad you like the images.
emerging grace was fair and honest and most other christian blogs but mark is getting a beating at the hands of fundieHaters - take a look at technorait and see.
and h. luddite - i am sure we bring our stuff into the scriptures like we always do but at the same time i have preached through song of solomon and one of my sermons was called Sex That Sizzles
so i guess i hold a similar view
but that came from the imagery of the book - the verdant garden, the fruit, the well. etc
but its a good question to ponder.

[grace]

Andrew,
As a woman, expressing my views about Mark's comments has been extremely frustrating.

To share an opinion, even respectfully, opens one up to being accused of judging, bashing, spewing venom, being overly sensitive, etc. Of course, that is a sure way to shut down the conversation.

Overwhelmingly, the reaction by women to Mark's comments has been that his comments felt demeaning. Sadly, in many cases this reaction is being dismissed as unfounded.

It would seem with so many people reacting in the same way, their opinion might be worth listening to. We expect our voices to be marginalized in Mark's world. It is disappointing to experience that in many other places also.

I have a great deal of respect for the men who have been willing to stand up and say that Mark's comments were wrong, not only untimely, but degrading to women.

I agree with Makeesha that it would be more helpful to Mark and the church to confront him about his comments and his attitude toward women.

Adjusting my head covering,
grace

PS. Thanks for your kind words Robby and Makeesha.

[Ben]

Andrew, I would agree that Mark's comments were untimely. But I do think they are generally correct.

[Makeesha Fisher]

Grace - oh do I EVER share your frustration.

Charity - no one is being overly sensitive. As Grace said, it's completely lose-lose when us women choose to call a man of high leadership and prominence on his ill chosen words and poor timing not to mention his demeaning attitudes toward women.

I think it's unfortunate that people are being overly harsh if Mark chooses to read these comments, for that I am sorry, but I stand by my statement and aligning myself with Grace and her sentiments on the issue.

I think it's very interesting that he's calling for more accountability but his followers and supporters rail on anyone who tries to point out comments of his that need to be judged.

[Makeesha Fisher]

and for the record, there are plenty of awesome men and women of God providing valuable insight into the Haggard thing, I don't need to sift through Driscoll's dumpster in the alley to find something with only a small amount of rot when I have a five course meal waiting for me in the restaurant. So the whole "let's take what we can from what D. says" line is just a platitude and completely worthless drivel