Mark Driscoll and Paris Hilton and banned video rumors

Rumors are flying around the blogosphere at the moment regarding what happened at the 2007 National New Church Conference and not all of them are true. Here is the skinny.

RUMOR 1: Mark Driscoll and Paris Hilton were seen together.

TRUE: Mark Driscoll and Paris Hilton were seen together on Technorati's top search list. Mark Driscoll at an IMPRESSIVE number 7 upstaging Paris Hilton at number 8.
FALSE: Paris Hilton was NOT turned away from a leadership position in Acts 29 church planters network because she was a woman. In fact, Paris has not even heard of Acts 29.

RUMOR 2: Bill Hybels chastised and rebuked Mark Driscoll for his view of women in church leadership.

TRUE: At the NNCC, Bill Hybels said a sentence or two following Mark's video about women having gifts and also being useful in the church.
FALSE: It was not considered a rebuke and it did not cause a big stink at the NNCC.

This image found on Steve McCoy's blog

Technorati Tags: bill hybels, church planting, exponential, mark driscoll

Actually, I was there at the conference, sitting in the sanctuary and liveblogging the experience, and it really wasnt a big deal. It certainly was not a theological dispute. Bill felt something needed to be said for the sake of the female members of the audience and when he said it, there was applause. Having said it, he launched into his message.

Was the video "well received" as suggested on Mark's blog? Well, we can only guess. Everyone was silent except for Bill Hybels who responded. My best guess is that MOST were uncomfortable with it, as expressed by the applause and yelling in response to Bill Hybel's introductory words. And there were probably many of the Acts 29 guys and others who were quite happy with it but did not get to express it.

Chris Elrod was also there and his comments on this blog sum up what happened

"I was there...I didn't think Hybels "ripped" into the video. He made one simple comment about women being important to church planting..that was pretty much it.
I really don't understand the controversy over the whole thing. The video is just classic Driscoll. Hybels' statements were just classic Hybels. Both are totally different...and needed in the Kingdom of God.
I think I'm most amazed because it was the final main session of the NNCC and the least attended. There didn't seem to be much buzz about the video or Bill's statements after the session...most folks just wanted to hit Disney World, lunch or the hotel pool. :-)"

Chris says this on his blog:

"Mark Driscoll and Bill Hybels are both men of God that have followed their calling and have reached a BUNCH of people for Christ. In my book...they have BOTH earned the right to say whatever they want to say. I was just thrilled to hear them both speak at a really good conference. Move on..."

RUMOR 3: 1800 copies of this video were banned from the conference

TRUE: Participants of NNCC conference never got a copy of the video.
FALSE: Acts 29 volunteers were not forbidden to hand them out.

I didn't even realize there were videos until i left the conference and read about it on the web. Henry Judy, one of the key people behind the bloggers roundtable at NNCC and a volunteer coordinator, has the skinny in this comment on the blog of Leadership Network's Todd Rhoades (one of the organizers):

"Let me set the record straight about this once and for all. I was a volunteer at the conference and worked with Scott from Acts 29 all week on the logistics of handling the video out. We also had 1800 Acts 29 brochures that did not arrive in time to be put in the bags at the beginning of the conference. As the conference was winding down we made a decision to hand the videos and brochures out via tables and volunteers at the 3 main doors and not each door to the sanctuary. We just did not have the people to do this nor was it feasible due to exit strategy. In no way, and I know first hand as I was in on the conversation, was their EVER any discussion by anyone associated with the conference that I know of NOT to hand out the video due to Bill Hybels remarks. What was quoted above IS THE QUOTE he said. You will be able to see for yourself when the main session videos are available on the conference website."
These rumors about the video being pulled from being given out are just NOT true. I know first hand what happened and now the record should be straight."

As for other rumors, I can tell you that Mark did not cleverly disguise anything but clearly set forth what he believes. Yes, he is called the "cussing pastor" but in fact, many offensive to my mother are are not offensive to his audience in Seattle, and vice versa - i will post on the issue of cussing soon to help clear this up.

Regarding Acts 29, I really dont think it is a woman hating church planters movement. I was present at the first (maybe two) meetings held in Florida in the late 90's when David Nicolas and Mark Driscoll were starting the network off. The leading speaker for the conference was my friend Sally Morgenthaler. I dont know whether Acts 29 has shifted in their policy on women teaching or leading men or not but it is known to be a network committed to a "complementarian" view. ACTS 29 is not one of the movements supported by the Boaz Project but it is an honorable network and is helping to start new churches. If your theology squares with that, and a 5 point Calvinism, then Acts 29 might work for you. If not, find a network that honors what you believe the Scriptures teach on this issue. And lets all move ahead together, cutting each other some slack and not trying to proselytize on secondary matters.

Here is Mark Driscoll's video. Its called "A Good Soldier"

And here is a video doing the rounds on blogs in response to Mark's video. [edit: It was made a while ago.] its called "Women in Christianity" and it was made by Jen at My True Self. HT: Laura at Sanctus

[related: Is the blogosphere ready for Mark Driscoll? Mark Driscoll: The Skinny

Comments

[Matt Tew]

I like the second video better.

[MizMelly]

I struggled with Mark's thing, but was disturbed that the second video did not contain any images of Christian women of an ethnicity other than white American. As an immediate response to his video, I think it's useful but if it was meant to deal with the invisibility of women, then we need to make visible all women, not just one ethnic or social group.

[emma]

I'm really appreciating Chris Elrods words on it...

"The video is just classic Driscoll. Hybels' statements were just classic Hybels. Both are totally different...and needed in the Kingdom of God..."

Thanks!

[grace]

Any comment on the fact that the source of the rumors is Mark's blog post on the Resurgence blog?

I wonder if we can expect an apology and a retraction. Some fairly nasty and unwarranted things have been said about Bill due to Mark's distortion of the facts.

Like most of us, he wasn't there! It's good to see the facts coming out from those who were in attendance.

[lyn]

Very good point Grace - Mark wasn't there!

[Jennifer]

Thanks for the link. :-)

Just for clarity, my video (the second one) wasnt made in response to Mark's video. It does have a quote from Mark in it (as well as quotes from a few other contemporary people) just to show that the old line of thinking is still with us. But, my video was made before I knew about Mark's latest thing.

[LayGuy]

It amazes me the amount of people wanting to bash Driscoll cause of this. It's as if he can't sneeze or fart without the blog world going into bezerk mode.

[tim]

I would have to agree with you Layguy. I like both videos. But it seems everything Driscoll does gets turned into something it is not. No where in the thing does he comment let alone degrade women. THE VIDEO IS ABOUT CHURCH PLANTING!! Lets not read things into it that are not there. I mean for all those throwing rocks give him some grace.

[JLA]

Where were the Scripture quotes in the Women in Christianity video?
It's not really a valid argument to quote sinful men to plead your case, in my opinion anyway.

[Helen]

Andrew thanks for drawing these various things together.

I love the Women in Christianity video.

I posted it on the blog I host today together with some things I found in your blog entry.

http://conversationattheedge.com/2007/05/01/video-women-in-christianity/

After learning about the Driscoll/Hybels thing yesterday and reading Mark's entry, I realized - hey, if the conference organizers decided to pull his video, he should be blaming them, not Bill Hybels.

Evidently what failed was the handing out strategy.

We will probably never know the full story. Maybe some strange unprecedented synchronicity of events happened, like, all the volunteers who weren't real men suddenly had to go to the bathroom when it was time to hand out videos. Since they weren't real men, they couldn't wait. We all know how long the lines are at women's bathrooms, so, by the time many of the not-real-men were back, it was too late; many of the people who were supposed to get videos were gone.

Maybe that's not how it happened but hey, if Mark can speculate, so can the rest of us...

[joe]

So, someone please tell me the number of men that ask you "how to have sex with your wife at least once a day".

Also, if anyone anywhere wants to make a video about church planting, please have the respect for families not to do it in a cemetery. Really, I don't care what you are saying, your actions are just saying

'I'm a self obsessed, self righteous idiot who does not mind using the grief of others as a backdrop for my pathetic attempt to communicate something."

[Jeff]

Thank you for clarifying what happened Andrew. What is instructive to me is that you were there. Almost everyone who was offended (it seems) wasn't even at the conference and didn't hear anything in context.

It seems to me that many have taken up another's offense. And there was no offense. Are we not the culture of offense? We get offended over anything. There's someone offended that other ethnicities were left out of the second video. Please stop being offended by everything!!!

What about, "Love is patient and kind?" or, "It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged?"

Those who have a problem with Mark Driscoll should go him and point out what you believe is his fault instead of dishing unproductive dirt. Sheesh!

[K.]

So the original post still says this:

The Banned Church Planting Video

This is where it all started. Is it a misunderstanding or a lie then? And if it is a misunderstanding, why would a mature adult choose to solve it in a blog post?

[andrew jones]

Jennifer - thanks for the clarification. I realized you made it a while ago but i was suggesting that it is doing the rounds in service of a response to Mark's video, not that it was created for that reason.

i was not clear on that - thanks.

i am in between flights right now and only have a few minutes to read these.

and yes, emma, i like what Chris said also

[Jon Reid]

I had no idea that not instructing men "how to have sex with their wives, at least once a day" was hindering church plants! Heh. But running this through some Driscoll processing filters, he may be on to something: sex is a big deal, and churches generally avoid the topic altogether. I would like to see this promoted more, but I'm not sure that this kind of phrasing helps.

[Erick]

I have read numerous posts through out the carpal-tunnel typepad community about last week's Imus-esque ordeal. I am not going to comment on the participants, but I do want to leave my thoughts about those who have chosen the combo moves of a rabbit-punch-into-a-pile-driver on Driscoll and Hybels.

First, let me say walking out and loss of respect for someone is a sign of insecurity and false measurement in one's leadership. I hope in the future of church planting this is not how we choose to handle aggravating situations or circumstances. Furthermore, we live, learn and love a guy who gave away his love, respect and trust freely. So, ask yourself – or selves for that matter - what we are teaching when we say we have "lost respect for someone, due to their actions." Honestly, it's really not for us to have any say who gets or merits respect, when we submit to the value giver – Jesus. Lastly, and more importantly, these Don Imus-esque issues and the negative statements about Driscoll and Hybels are partial reasons why the disconnected actively have to work to see the difference and love we share for one another.

Thank you for allowing me to have a Driscoll moment.

[Jeremy]

Thank the Lord for Helen!

I can't believe the controversy over this video is about Mr Driscoll's exclusive reference to men as leaders (which is at least a widely held theological position, albeit one with which I vehemently disagree) when the setting in a military cemetery is an absolute insult to those whose lives were ripped from them by war and their grieving families, not to mention actual Christian martyrs.

In this day and age, does anyone still believe military metaphors are the best way to express what our faith is all about?

[Ben]

Thanks Andrew for clearing things up. I watched both videos, and I just want to say that I know alot of women who would actually applaud and cheer for Mark Driscoll's video. These are woomen in my church who have seen how men (sometimes their own husbands) have completely given up on church, take no responsibility and are completely disinterested in spiritual matters. In fact, in a recent meeting, I heard many say something to following effect: "Amen! We need more Godly men to step up! I would gladly follow them!"

In the second video, the infamous Mark Driscoll quote concerning the Ted Haggard issue is used with several other quotes suggesting that Driscoll believes that women are inferior to men. I don't know the context of the other quotes, but Driscoll's quote NEEDS to read IN CONTEXT. I have read almost of all of Driscoll's stuff, and I know that he ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT WOMEN ARE INFERIOR. A Completmentarian view does not require this. If you read Driscoll's stuff or John Piper's stuff, they are constantly negating this. That said, I agree with the second video's intention and applaud the fact that women and their gifts need to be celebrated in the church, and that it is absolutely true that men have abused power over women and HAVE seen them as inferior, and this view needs to be rejected.

If men truly understood passages like Ephesians 5, they would love and cherish women like Jesus love and cherished us. And if men really understood what leadership was about, they would get on their knees and serve. Could it be possible that we need to teach Men what it REALLY means to be a leader, and then women would not be abused and mistreated?

To everyone, please listen to both the complementarian and egalitarian perspectives humbly, and let's really try to hear each other honestly.

[Denny Sullivan]

Andrew, check out Acts 29's newest blog that addresses some of the criticisms

www.acts29network.org

[Jennifer]

Ben,

Regarding context...

*None* of those quotes are placed in their full context. It wasn’t my intent to provide a full discourse on what each of those people believe about women. It was my intent to let other people have the emotional experience of the affect of those quotes.

And...I know Driscoll says he does not believe women are inferior to men. He's allowed to define that in any way he wants. But, the reality is that he is on record as saying woman can't do _______ (be church planters, lead men, be senior pastors, etc etc). He is, in fact, saying that women would be *inferior* at those positions.

[Rev. Carlene Appel]

Driscoll's views are old worn out ones. He should stop trying to beat a dead horse. God calls whosoever will to lead and He gives them the gifts to do it. Deborah is a classic example. My own 7 year trek of training and education for ministry, ordination and the pastoring of 2 churches were at God's direction and affirmed many times over. Women, if God calls you to plant a church or pastor an already existing one, just go get the training & education you need then do it. Don't be discouraged or sidetracked by the Mark Driscolls of the world, instead obey the ONLY One whose voice and opinion matters--God

[alison]

No matter what Mark Driscoll says, for a long time to come his comments are going to be seen through the prism of the degrading comments he made about women after the Ted Haggard fiasco. It will be awhile before he can live that down and people forget about it. That is why we have to be SO careful about what we say - people will remember the negative longer than they do the positive.

[tim]

Jennifer as an egalitarian, I want to say that what your wrote is exactly why gender conversations often go so bad.

You must be informed on this stuff, and truly understand the opposite view before you communicate about it. Complementarians do not I repeat do not believe that women are "inferior" this is wrong and inaccurate for you to say.

They do not believe a woman would be inferior in church planting, senior leadership, they simply believe it is an issue of God ordained office. To them it is not an issue of gifting or being inferior it is a matter of believing God has given the office or role to men. I know this is an emotionally charged issue but be fair.

And yes putting Mark's quote in there does communicate, even if it is implicit a low view of women which I do not believe he holds. I say all of this as someone who dislikes much of what comes out of the guys mouth but I am tired of people picking up rocks to throw at him. Where is the love, grace and charity?

[Paul D]

I'd encourage you, Jennifer, to please consider how you slander people by not playing things in context. If you gun for equality, then treat others as you'd like to be treated; please love your neighbor as your self...you'd like to be quoted in context, do the same for Driscoll. If he is to be castigated, let it be on the basis of truth. You need to neither add nor detract from how he presents himself. Let HIM present himself. Emotions ARE important, but you can do a world of evil by relying solely on how you feel.

Please also consider that the complementarian view is held by those who take a most literal translation of the bible. This is not "Driscoll's view", it is the most straightforward understanding of biblical texts found in the epistles. All who hold complementarian views finds ourselves in a hard place. Do we believe what we read at face value, or do we follow cultural procedures and interpretations that seem to have there sources in places we do not trust? There are plenty of women who'd do a fine job as elders. I'd, in fact, prefer to allow it if nothing else but for the sake of peace. You can view our interpretation as "out-dated," and degrading to women. But how do I deal with the Bible? Do I take it seriously or not? Who will I stand before when the end comes? I have to go with my understanding and conscience on this one, even if it is difficult.

Alison, have you read Driscoll's full blog on Ted Haggard? If you have and still choose to see his wise advise to male pastors as degrading, I'd question either a) your understanding of male psychology or b) your motive in calling it degrading. He took the time, in light of a pastoral failure, to talk about the dangers to male pastors. Consider reading "for women only: a guide to the inner lives of men". The writer, a woman, really knowns her stuff. She shows statistically that it IS important for a man to know that his wife cares of her body. It gives no grounds, in the case of her failure, for him to cheat on her. But if we are to love each other, maybe we should be interested in knowing how the other feels loved? Additionally, his comment was one amongst a stream of things that, if our cultural situations were reversed, men would consider "degrading" as it points our sinful and irrational fixation on sex and money.

Carlene, consider that, in light of the ENTIRE bible, that Deborah was something of a red herring. God appointed her for a time and she performed admirably. However, how does that say that solid, caring, thoughtful, Godly male leadership is outdated? And where does Deborah's example show that women leadership is the norm? Jesus, who cared not a whit about cultural norms, had 12 men as apostles. Does that mean anything?

Where does this aggression towards male leadership come from? It saddens me that it mostly comes from abuses by male leadership, our fathers and pastors. And the two groups that are consistently mocked in both secular and church culture are stereotypically "masculine" men who love their wifes, provide for their children and have a sense of dignity and stereotypically "feminine" women who desire to raise a family and love/respect her husbands.

Does no one see this for the attack it is?

Just some thoughts...

[Ben]

Tim, I want to thank you for gracious comments. You say that you hold to the "egalitarian" view, and you are the type of person I would really like to sit down with and discuss this issue with. I am someone who leans towards the "complementarian" view, but I know that I need to really listen to the BEST representation of the "egalitarian" view, if I'm going to talk about it all. I plead with all of you to do likewise.