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June 02, 2007

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» Foul Language from Counseling Notes
Recently Chuck Swindoll was dropped from the VCY Radio Network for “Crude, Vulgar, From the Gutter” Language. Some bloggers applauded the action, others were offended by the radio network, not by Chuck. Andrew, the Tall Skinny Kiwi, pointed out ... [Read More]

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I have enjoyed Stephen Fry’s work in various contexts; it’s now my delight to enjoy reading his blog., and not only because he slags “Dan Whatsit” and his “preposterously awful” book The Leonardo Code. And now I know many things not to say if I ever me... [Read More]

Comments

david

Very interesting post. I was made to think of this issue a week or so ago.

Had been watching the first session of BattleStar Galactar on DVD (until I figured it was just a soap opera with space ships and go board). Relevance - they use "Freck" as their standard swear word..

Anyway in this work meeting with two Christians and said something about politics and how unless you can show people why it is important to them they wouldn't give a Freck.

Anyway the facilitator of the meeting said he never allows swear words or anything close to it in meetings so don't do it again.

Felt quite chagrined but realized that as a Christian my standards should be the level above what people find offensive. And that I hadn't really given the word "freck" any thought. It has taken me quite a bit of disciple and work to pull back the words that are marginal.

Like you pointed out though really issues come in with a national or global community.

Jon Hallewell

Last year I was depressed and uptight (some people who know me might say I still am!) I had all kinds of prayer, was trying all kinds of ways to get out of it to no avail. I spent a week with a pastor friend. At the end of the week he said God had given him a word for me. The word "In the name of Jesus Christ just [F word]ing relax." Did he get it wrong? Does God swear? All I know is that the impact was immediate. I was immediately released and in a different place. Somehow ... "just relax" would not quite have had the same effect. It didn't offend me. I guess they both (God and the pastor) weighed that up before saying it.

lisa

I was giving a message on Creation and I quoted Alice Walker in The Color Purple saying "I think it pisses God off when we walk by the color purple in a field and don't notice it." I referenced the quote and apologized ahead of time in case it offended, but I still got one strong complaint. Last summer I was praying in front of a large group of mostly Americans and I happened to say in my prayer for the situation in the Middle East that I was "embarrassed of my government." I got into quite a lot more trouble for that. I guess you never know what will offend.

Wulf Forrester-Barker

Excremental? That would cover the "dirtiness" associated with literal excretions and sexuality.

andrew

excremental? he he he. that sounds almost religious.

lisa, thanks for that. i wonder if sometimes God pushes us to break our own taboos, like he did with Peter and the food he ate (with Cornelius) and with Ezekiel and the kind of dung he chose.

dave

Andrew - my old church in Canberra clearly didn't get the memo about "ass" not being a swearword. I got about six complaints after using that in the pulpit and one father banned his daughter from attending the evening service!

Rob Grayson

Andrew, thanks for not being afraid to get stuck into a sensitive and controversial subject. I find your overview very balanced. Frankly, if everyone worried more about judging themselves than others, there would be a lot more grace on display.

andrew

dave, are you sure you didnt use the word "arse". "arse" in Australia is much harsher than "ass" in USA and i would hold back before letting that one rip from a pulpit. . . the WORD i mean.

dave

Well, I don't know how offensive it's considered in the USA, but I wouldn't have thought "arse/ass" was especially strong language here.

Carlo

Interestingly to highlight our religiousness, I remember Tony Campolo saying something like, 'most people couldn't give a s*** that 9000 children will die of starvation today (or similar) and you are probably more bothered that I have just said the s-word than the fact that so many children will starve to death.' We Christians can tend to get awfully hung up on these things and lose a sense of priority.

andrew

Thanks Carlo. I remember that. That's a well told story in the western evangelical world.

Sue

It seems so legalistic to me to get hung up about words, which probably mean something entirely innocent in other languages anyway. Isn't an ass a donkey? I had no idea until a few years ago that it meant something quite different in the USA.

Having said that I don't like some of the 'bad' words, but recognise it's my personal hangups and preferences. As you say, what matters is our heart and attitude, not the actual words we use, which are related to culture and upbringing.

Even then, I think Christians can sometimes be too diplomatic, too polite, too careful not to give any offence when perhaps it might be better if we did. It was Jesus, after all, who didn't hesitate to use phrases like 'brood of vipers' or 'whitewashed sepulchres'. Perhaps the emerging church is actually walking more in Jesus' steps than many more traditional and legalistic congregations...?

joe

I think we need a healthy dose of getting-over-ourselves. We have already succeeded in turning the bible into totally banal English - and now we are attempting to superimpose our middle class values onto others.

You don't tend to hear much about it, but I am told that the original language makes it clear that St Paul considered himself to be a waste product in Philippians 3:8.

Curious, isn't it? We prefer the sanitised version than the actual text. I don't even want to think about what the text actually says when we read that 'x lay with y' and produced a son or daughter.

The other problem is that our system of language is linked historically to the Latin rather than the Anglo-saxon. Therefore it is fully reasonable to use words like copulate, urinate, defecate and so on when the anglo-saxon words which mean exactly the same things are very rude.

The anglo-saxon sounds harsh. This is what makes the swearing worth doing - it expresses some of the pent up pain and anger inside. I'm not sure that most people who swear actually mean what they're saying - that is totally beside the point.

OK enough already.

andrew

yeah . . . stop now, Joe, before you say something offensive you will regret!

joe

I don't know, Andrew. I don't like this sanitised bible and middle-class christianity - the thing is meant to be offensive.

Imagine if Christ had actually said the equivilent of

"Blessed are f-ked up, for they will inherit the earth"

"Just as the well do not need a doctor, it is the prostitutes, the punks, the losers, the s-tfaced, the drunkards, the losers, and the other lowlifes who really need me"

"When someone really really pisses you off, do not plan bad things against them. Be nice to them, and it will be like tipping a full ashtray over their head."

And rather than taking offense at the tone, how about we take time to deal with Real Christ rather than this pathetic cardboard cutout we so often mistake him for.

Ish Engle

Excremental was good, but I thought exhibitionial might also work, since so many of the words deal with bringing "bedroom" subjects into the open...

andrew

[updated response] Joe - i had to add something to this response. I agree with you. The edge of the challenge of Christ is dulled by mediocrity. Jesus offensiveness happened on many levels. Thanks for your excellent comment.

[original] i hear you Joe but at the same time i dont think we should confuse the offence of the cross with offence caused by certain words that trigger endorphins of negative reactions.

having said that, it must be said that Jesus' ministry and words were offensive, but in that first way - not the second.

also, Jesus was offensive to the Jews because of what he DID NOT SAY as well as what he said.

Example from Luke 4 where Jesus does NOT keep reading from Isaiah - the part about judgment of the Gentiles - but instead talks about the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's plan - HIGHLY OFFENSIVE -
and finds himself in deep . . ahhh . . water . . and given a tour of the Nazarene cliff faces.

Jesus' life and actions were offensive, reminding me of the quote from someone that goes . .

"Jesus was killed because of how he ate"

andrew

ish - good point.


hey ish - i saw you and your dad are involved in the REAL Summer of Love ministry this summer in SF. Come back and tell us about it if you can.

jason_73

Yeah when we were in Mexico for 4 years, we would cringe as the visiting work groups would use the word "stupid" in every other sentence during there testimony time. Also, a few months ago didn't Tiger Woods get in all sorts of trouble for referring to himself as a "spaz" while playing in the Biritsh Open? Another word that I would have no idea was offensive if I were in England...

Nicholas

In the south we say "Let Go and Let God". . . Amen?

Tim the Enchanter

A friend of mine who left the church some years ago for a long period of time, said to me one day "you have to realise that almost NOBODY out there is talking about you (the church) or even considering some of the issues that you seem to feel are SO important".

Storm.... teacup....

Ish Engle

Andrew,

I wish I was involved in the REAL summer of love, it's website looks great and the program sounds wonderful. However, I'm not sure if I'm even related to Jesse Engle :-).

Does that excommunicate me from these discussions? ;-)

Ryan

I don't like "excremental" or "exhibitionary".

How 'bout "exciting"?

:-)~

P.S. It makes me sick when people care more about the words you use than what you're actually saying.

andrew

thanks ryan.

ish - sorry . .. i thought you were Lou Engle's son. my mistake. and yes, you are still welcome to comment here.

Matt

Although it's a little uncreative, how about using plain old "expletive" for point 2?

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