« TransFORM Missional Community | Main | Did the online church start in 1985? »

October 31, 2009

Comments

jason_73

Best blog post title of the year.

Ed

Yes, you are missing a couple of things it would seem to me. One, a bible. I anticipated a biblical reference ot two. I saw none! And two, I think you mind is missing. I hope you find it before it is too late.

eric Blauer

Dr Peter Masters article was scathing....wow.

I can imagine I would be taken to the pastoral whipping shed by that man...I tremble just thinking what theological and ecclesiological lashing I would get. The issues he raises are so valid to discuss but man, he sounded like he would eat someone whole with a bowl of Old Evangelical fire and brimstone; if you disagreed with his stance on anything.

I tool eschew the "New Calvinism" label but enjoy many of the influences of the Puritans and Reformers....but I guess that makes me a syncretistic heretic instead of a Christian pilgrim who has been blessed by the voices and lives of my fathers past.

The tone, posture, position and pronouncements in the linked too article...leave me grieved. I see no difference between holding to such esteemed teachers as he apparently is and the "celebrity worship" of the "New Calvinists"...both seem to have found a place on the "pinnacle of the temple" that provides one with a great view down on people.

I pray a more vulnerable, amiable, hospitable and teachable spirit arises with the founding to the emerging generations.

Fathers, don't exasperate your children by coming down hard on them. Take them by the hand and lead them in the way of the Master.-Ephesians 6:4 -from The Message :)

andrew

the way of the Masters? oooohhhh . . "Master" . . YES

well said.

Jason Coker

Nice post.

"What attracted me was a high commitment to the Scriptures and the no-compromise stance of Reformers who were willing to risk death for their beliefs."

My problem is that the Reformers high view of scripture to penetrate deeply enough into social ethics. Luther all but capitulated to a power-grabbing policy on usury that benefited his patrons and devastated the poor, as well as solidifying the drift toward compartmentalized sacred/secular lives.

When scanning history for radically faithful stream of Christianity it's hard for me not to admire the anabaptists.

Ed Brenegar

Thanks for putting into words my own inarticulate feelings about this thing.
I think what bothers me as much is that it is an institutional formula that all culture should be shoe-horned into. I don't read the Puritans that way. I find them trying to apply a faith that joins the heart and head within the context of their time. Their time is not ours and so the institutional form doesn't apply in the same ways.
Great post. Thanks.

juegos de estrategia

nice entry! happy halloween to all readers of this blog

Jon Cardwell

Wow. Thanks for the mention, Andrew. Though I don't know you, I have known of you through Iggy and Ken Silva... (& no, I don't believe that saying their names in the same sentence is an oxymoron *big smile*).

I haven't had the chance to fully digest Dr. Masters' article yet, but I did want to say I appreciated your comments.

Myself, I haven't made up my mind concerning this "New Calvinism" because for every 2 people I hear from I get 3 opinions.

Again, many thanks, sir. Happy Reformation Day!

brad andrews

I appreciate your proactive thoughts here Andrew but your characterization of reformed folks is true only for a slice of that realm (though it may be the loudest slice). Unfortunately, it isn't true in the reformed circles I run in.

I'm seeing a move towards mixture of what David Fitch calls Reformed Missionals and Anabaptist Missionals. See this: Reformed Missional versus Anabaptist Missional versus Pragmatic Missional Just my two cents...

If we are talking about the Western church in general, your bullet points are right on. Bigtime. I couldn't agree with you more.

jenell

Would their anti-equality for women, or patriarchal theology, (a strong, though not monolithic, view of the New Calvinists) also be a reason for you not to join them? (I hope so.)

Mike Clawson

I second what Jenell said - I think you forgot to mention their pervasive sexism as one of the really big reasons not to be a New Calvinist.

Mike Clawson

Brad - I'm pretty sure Andrew wasn't trying to characterize all "reformed folks", just the "New Calvinist" slice of them.

Matt Stephens

#1 reason not to be a New Calvinist: Calvinism. :-)

Oh, and Mike, does being complementarian = sexism?

Mike Clawson

Matt - yes. Just because it has a theological label doesn't mean it's not sexist. There are plenty of examples of sexist theologies out there. Whether one thinks it's justified biblically or not doesn't change what it is.

tsk

hi mike and others. my post is biographical so i am not trying to characterize anyone except for myself at that stage in my life. and back then, sexism was not an issue for me.

other issues that were real, though, and nudged me away from what would become "new Calvinism" involed a credalism that was foreign to my baptist leanings, and a suspicious bias against the supernatural, exorcism, my charismatic friends, and a rigorous missional approach to contextualization in the home countries.

not saying sexism is a non-issue, just saying it was not for me back then.

becky

What's telling is that all of the comments so far have been by dudes. Seems this is an issue where chicks just don't chime in. :)

As someone who belongs to a denomination that has ordained women legally since 1979 and currently a woman wears the biggest pointy hat, sexism is a non-issue for me here in the States. If I go to an event and it's almost all dudes, I decide to play elsewhere. And given that I can go to plenty of church events that are multicultural, if everyone looks more or less like me, I tend to start looking for the exit as well.

twitter.com/rosedanielm

Great comments all around. I like how there are a variety voices coming through. I am always intrigued by the way that the "calvinism" is portrayed. This concept of the "new calvinism" is particularly interesting. Mostly because it is pointing to a very small slice of the pie. The reformed tradition so much broader and richer than this new generation of reformed baptists.

I particularly think of a denomination like the Evangelical Presbyterian Church or the Covenant Church. I also think about the early generations of reformers and it was they who spear-headed social just as a result of their covenantal hermeneutic (this hermeneutic doesn't exist as much in the new calvinism because most are not reformed but progressive dispensationalists who still hold to their separation of OT and NT).

Although labels seem to be necessary evils (clearly I use them) I like to think it's time in this emerging, global, generation to begin the process of setting aside these silly divisive labels for the sake of the mission. What is egalitarians could embrace their complementarian siblings as the "weaker brother" (or vice versa), what if the arminian could do the same calvinist (or vice versa)? What if we rallied about mission for the sake of the kingdom and stopped with all the, "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, oh, yeah, well I follow Jesus" nonsense that was supposed to be done away with in the first century?

Could it happen?

Bob Chapman

I have serious trouble with Calvinism because of some of the perverse conclusions it comes up with in predestination and election. Meanwhile, you can find enough about the majesty of God elsewhere.

You don't need Calvinism to get the good stuff it has to offer. You run a danger of having some dangerous ideas stick to you if you play with that tar.

Besides, commitment to Scripture is not enough. You need to be committed to the Community of Believers. You need to be committed to the historic teaching of the Church Universal. Removed from the context of other believers and historic teaching, Scripture can be used as a tool for ill. Even the Devil knows scripture.

Sarah@EmergingMummy

Thank you so much for writing this! I learned a lot and appreciate the perspective.

Terry Jensen

I agree with Ed Berengar the social hermeneutic of the day is far removed from our venerable brothers the Puritans. It should be said that Calvinism is a theological system and as such it only provides a place to hang our theological hats, if you will. Any theological system is a bad one if the Bible can not change it. It is dangerous to advocate any theological construct over the Biblical witness. I am a Calvinist and have been such for over 30 years. Where I am theologically is not where I began way back when. And, I pray to God (every day) that tomorrow I will not be where I am today. Over the past three decades I have seen many socially oriented evangelical observations which have found their way into print and created a great deal of temporary stir. Calvinism for me has always been a stable compass pointing to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. So, if someone wants to create a "new" label for Calvinism let them. Read your Bible, obey the Holy Spirit, follow Jesus, glorify God above all.

Jeff

Can you clarify a bit more how New Calvinism is "irreversibly Western"? Are you making a statement about the movement itself or an observation about those who belong to the New Calvinist "tradition"?

Tsk

Perhaps both. The global south is acknowledged as the new majority but in reality, all confessions and statements of faith bow down to Westminster, and I don't know if that situation is "reversible" or not.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Streams

  • Twitter Upcoming YouTube Bebo del.icio.us Digg Facebook Flickr LinkedIn Ning Skype Technorati PrayerFeeder Cocomment Doppler - trip schedule Shelfari - books i am reading

Subscribe

  • TwitterCounter for @tallskinnykiwi

Appeal

Tweet Tweet

Seek and Find

  • Search This Site
My Photo
Blog powered by TypePad